Genoa Sizes for a Fractional Rig

So what's a comfortable size for a genoa on a SeaHawk?   My sail maker at Wind Dancer Sails(http://winddancersailmakers.com/) thinks a 150% would be to much for my SeaHawk in all but the lightest of airs. I countered with a 130%  What say the members of the SeaHawk forum?

Hi Tom
I think there is a diagram of the original genoa on this site.  130% sounds about right to me.
Brian

Here you go Tom
http://www.seahawk17.org.uk/history/jeckellsmemo.htm

Thanx Brian! The link explains all.  Note to self - scour Greg's Seahawk site more thoroughly.  

New question:  Ever hear or know of anybody that converted the fractional rig to a full rig?
My sailmake says don't do it and in fact I'm wouldn't ever - but I was wondering.

Hi Tom,

Tom Altee wrote

Ever hear or know of anybody that converted the fractional rig to a full rig?

Apart from the "tall rig" boats mentioned on the History and Jeckells Memo pages, I am aware of one or two. However, I suspect they are "make do" repairs because of mast failure, rather than an active decision to fit a taller rig.

Here's, Kittiwake, an example that was offered for sale in 2013. I grabbed the photo from the advert:


However, I could be wrong. See Mike Cullum's Introduction!

Hi Tom,

A further thought about genoas ...

It wasn't until I posted some photos of a cruise I took in 1976 with friends aboard my father's SeaHawk, that I was reminded again of one of the issues with genoas for narrow river sailors. I write at:
http://www.gregafloat.org.uk/broads/jemima1976.html

"With all the noise I make, about the use of the genoa, in my reports of my attempts at the Three Rivers Race on my own SeaHawk, it was a surprise to be reminded that I must have fitted fairleads and cleats for the genoa on father's boat. I had barely remembered using the genoa, but it would appear that I had spent at least a little time and money on making sure it could be used."

The photo that illustrates the comment is this:


where you see I fitted a fairlead and cleat well back in the cockpit.

The point being that with the largest genoa supplied back in 1973 the foot is so long that neither of the cabin-top fairleads can be used. It comes back further than even Moore's winches would allow and you have to take the sail round the outside of the shrouds.

That means tacking in confined waters becomes a major problem as it takes time to move the sail across the boat and set it for maximum efficiency, not to mention that you lose 10 degrees or so of upwind performance.

Of course, that difference of upwind performance may matter little on open waters where one can spend hours before turning and take advantage of the extra speed through the water on a broader reach, but when tacking every 30 seconds, which is common on the waters I sail in, not being able to have the jib set for maximum efficiency in a moment is a major deficiency.

I now understand why I once saw in a photograph of a marina a notice requiring skippers bring their boats into the harbour to be under motor. You just can't tack efficiently with modern small main and giant genoa rigs - though I understand their benefits for those sailing in open waters.

Thanks for the extended reply Greg. I have noticed that the jib on a fractional rig requires more attention with constant readjustments as you point the boat on whatever reach you're on. I find it useful to have my passenger be the jib hand whose duty is to set and reset the jib. I can already visualize the problems a large Genoa would entail - in fact, on my SeaHawk, I inherited several cleats and fairings that could have only been for a large Genoa and a small spinnaker. The breed is already a lively boat so adding in such a large sail would/could be problematic if she was "over canvased" (or nyloned in these modern times).
The river I sail on in its upper reaches is quite wide and in spots several miles across for long stretches. The St Johns river runs some 150 miles south from her headwaters to her northern mouth and exit on the Atlantic. And of course at 62 years old what am I looking for here? How much performance do I need at my age? I was speaking with my rigger Julian Crisp (an ex-pat Brit who has sailed SeaHawks back in the UK) and my sail maker Tom Smith and they agreed that she's fine just as she is with maybe the addition of a smaller Genoa if I must have one - but should probably refrain from anything bigger than a 130%. She sails fine just as she is though as you noted my mainsail is about 10% smaller than originally supplied. I have rebattened that sail with much lighter battens to attain more shape. We are currently under tropical rainy conditions and won't be drying out for several weeks it appears - look for more videos under sail from me and feel free to critique my set up and proffer any handling tips.

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Has anyone had any experience with a Genoa? I would like a little more power from my Seahawk especially in light winds and wooded places.
Thanks,  Gordon

We sail on the northern Broads.  Our Seahawk came with a Genoa, or extra large jib, but we've hardly used it.  It makes tacking more difficult and it's not much use in light winds as it needs a reasonable breeze to keep it filled.  But I'm sure it would be good for a sea-going boat.  We occasionally use a spinnaker and that works well when the wind is in the right direction....
Victoria

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Hi Gordon,

I say a little of my experience earlier in this topic. I'm sure that on open waters and especially when what wind there is on the beam a genoa could be useful for extra power.

However, experience as a Broads Sailor, especially, on the northern rivers, has taught me that you just need to accept the nature of a SeaHawk.

If you want good performance on narrow tree-lined rivers a genoa is not the answer. It takes too long to set efficiently after tacking and, as the sheets must pass outside your shrouds, you lose the ability to point closely into what wind there is.

Not only that, in light winds, the back draft and eddies you get as the wind hits the trees on the opposite bank and then comes back at you in the opposite direction tends to make a large genoa flap about uselessly.

For light winds amongst trees on narrow rivers you need a top-sailed gaff-rigged craft with a mast at least as tall as the trees - and that doesn't describe a SeaHawk!

I found a 45 year old Jeckell Genoa appx sized at 110 or 120%. Because of the fractional rig not turbo-charging the mainsail as in a traditional rig I found the the smaller Genoa to be a perfect sail to power up my SeaHawk. Anything bigger than a 120% I feel would be to much - but I could well be wrong. Would love to have a 150% to test out! Anyway here in Florida on a very wide (2-6 nm) river just off the ocean running north/south I find myself running up the Genoa in anything under 20 knot winds. One thing with the fractional rig - I find myself having to tend to the jib more often than a traditional rig. Often I delegate some to be my jib handler/setter. Hope this helps!
Tom Altee


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I agree with Greg's experience.  
We sometimes set an original Jeckylls genoa on Mustang but only on the open sea in light winds.  It's great with the wind aft or on a reach, but not so good close-hauled.  It's pretty useless on the Camel estuary in the confines of the river for exactly the reasons Greg describes; it doesn't tack well, collapses easily in back winds from the margins and mostly flaps about messing with the air flow over the mainsail.  

Hi Tom,

Tom Altee wrote

Anyway here in Florida on a very wide (2-6 nm) river just off the ocean

And there lies the difference. The rivers of the northern Broads are rarely wider than 120ft and the tree lined stretches can be down to 60ft. That kind of sailing really does sort out those who can handle their boats!

Originally, this post had more but then I realised it should be elsewhere.

The 110 Genoa seems to power the boat through the tack better because I generates more speed. That said the positioning of the stays for the larger Genoa is...inconvenient. Again, I find it useful to have a designated hand to deal with the fractional jib/genoa. Anything bigger than a 110 or 120 would be a pain the rear due to the positioning of the stays. Im guessing that the weather in North Florida is more benign that anywhere in the UK. Over the next few days I will post up video via YouTube of tacking and jibing with my new jib and the 45 year old Jeckell Genoa and the forum can call it as they see it. Stay tuned.

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Hi Greg,

Thank you and all the others responders answering my question. I will take
your advice and love my Seahawk as she is. Glad to get all the experience
of others on the forum and save time, energy and money going down that
route.

Gordon